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   A (European) Generation Takes to the Streets
P:  6/8/2011 2:47:18 PM
HT

Member

Total Posts: 2,760
Last Post: 4/20/2013
Member Since: 7/16/2004

A European Generation Takes to the Streets


By Mathieu von Rohr and Helene Zuber     http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,767032,00.html


For weeks, hundreds of young people have been camping out in central Madrid. And others across Europe have now begun following their example. Protests in Lisbon, Paris, Athens and elsewhere show that Europe's lost generation has finally found its voice.


Any real revolution in Paris has to include the storming of the Bastille. Which explains why 200 young demonstrators are sitting in the shade of the trees at Place de la Bastille on this Thursday evening, wondering how to go about staging such a revolution.


Their numbers had already swelled to more than 2,000 by the Sunday before, when they had occupied the entrance to the Bastille Opera and half the square. But then the police arrived with teargas and, since then, have kept strict watch over this symbolic site.


The protestors are trying to create a movement to rival the protests in Madrid and Lisbon. They want tens of thousands of young people to march in the streets of Paris, calling for "démocratie réelle," or real democracy. They believe that there is also potential for such large-scale protest in France, with youth unemployment at more than 20 percent, precarious working conditions and what feels like a constant state of crisis.


"Until now, our problems were always seen as individual problems," says Julien, a 22-year-old physics student who has joined a group called Actions. "You were told that if you couldn't find a job, it was your own fault. Perhaps we are now experiencing a change taking place, and that we are joining forces to form a pan-European movement against this system."


A Fundamental Change


There is a feeling that unites young people throughout Europe, namely the belief that they will not be able to attain the same level of prosperity as their parents did. They feel that they have no future. They are well-trained, and yet they are not finding any jobs. This feeling has been smoldering for years, affecting the generation of "crisis children," who grew up in a world shaped by economic and other crises, but who never took to the streets to fight for their interests.


But a fundamental change is taking place. On March 12, 200,000 people marched down the Avenida de Liberdade, or Avenue of Freedom, in Lisbon. It was the biggest demonstration in Portugal since the 1974 Carnation Revolution, a march of the lost generation.


As in Cairo months ago, everything began on Facebook -- with an appeal that Alexandre de Sousa Carvalho and some of his former fellow students at the University of Coimbra posted. They called upon the Geração à rasca (or "generation of junk"), to join together in protest. "We, the unemployed, the underpaid and the interns, are the best educated generation in the country's history," they wrote. "We are protesting so that those responsible for our precarious situation quickly change this untenable reality."


Carvalho, 25, who studied international relations, is a polite young man with a beard and a leather armband on his wrist. He says that he is normally a patient person. But when he discovered that, despite having obtained a master's degree in English, he would likely only be able to get a limited contract and that he would likely be forced to find work in Africa, he was overcome with fury.


No Benefits


Portugal is the fourth-poorest country in the euro zone. Even in Greece, the per capita gross domestic product is higher. Unemployment has almost doubled to 12.6 percent in six years; among people under 25, the jobless rate is 27 percent. Of those who do have jobs, more than half are working in temporary positions. Many are pseudo self-employed, earn very little and must pay a tax rate of up to 50 percent. They receive no social insurance benefits.


Carvalho says that a song by the band Deolinda inspired them to protest. The lyrics epitomized their feelings about life: "I'm from the generation that doesn't get paid. It doesn't bother me. How stupid can I be? Things are going poorly, and that's the way it will stay. Those who can land an internship are lucky. What a stupid world this is, a world in which we go to school to become slaves."


They had never imagined that so many people would end up taking to the streets. Nor did they think that it would be the beginning of a movement that would take hold in other countries, too. The organizers of the protests in Spain and France contacted him, says Carvalho. They wanted to know how to bring anarchists, right-wing activists, Trotskyists and Catholics together into the streets without a single windowpane being smashed.


In the last few months, the world has gotten used to the images of young people occupying streets and squares. It is familiar with these scenes from Avenue Habib Bourguiba in Tunis, Tahrir Square in Cairo and the Pearl Roundabout in Bahrain. Those are the images of the Arab revolution, and now there are similar scenes unfolding in Europe.


But what do they have in common? The Arab countries are among the poorest in the world. More than half the population is younger than 25. Europe, by contrast, is rich and young people are a minority in societies that are getting older and older. In Arab countries, young people are fighting for democratic rights, while Europe's youth are protesting because they are worried about decline.


Images from the Arab World


In both cases, the protesters are well-educated young people who are unable to find work. They are the driving force of all revolutions. The tools of the demonstrations are also similar, with young people using social networks to organize but lacking central leadership. It almost seems as if the European youth needed the images from the Arab world to finally stand up on their own.


A tent city has been set up on Puerta del Sol in Madrid, the most famous square in Spain, for three weeks. The square has become the world of the "indignados," the indignant. The protesters began building the tent city on May 15, a week before local and regional elections. About 100 people spent the night in the first few nights, but then the election council declared the camp to be illegal -- which only resulted in its growing even faster. On the Sunday of the elections, 30,000 people filled the square and nearby streets, protesting against the economic crisis, incompetent politicians and corruption.


They are also trying their hand at direct democracy. Citizens are encouraged to thrown their suggestions into cardboard boxes set up on the square. Every evening, a committee meets to discuss short-term political ideas and those that are more future-oriented. Two weekends ago, the protesters held gatherings in 120 districts of the capital. They now intend to use these gatherings to refine their ideas and have decided only to meet on Puerta del Sol once a week.


Apolitical young people who long believed that conformity was the best strategy for getting by, have become political overnight. This is perhaps the most astonishing conclusion to be reached by observing this movement. And it also applies to France and Portugal, where the protesters are demanding direct citizen participation and are collecting signatures to support bills aimed at improving the situation of young people.


'I'll Have to Go Abroad'


Patri, an 18-year-old woman, was at the protests in Madrid almost from the start. Last Wednesday, she was sitting at the communication stand in her gray hooded sweatshirt. She was coughing and had dark circles under her weary eyes. Nevertheless, she still wants to stay. "We're making history now," she says. "A chance like this will not come again." Patri is a first-year university student studying English and German. She wants to become a translator. "But I'll have to go abroad," she adds.


More than 44 percent of people under 25 have no work in Spain, and almost one in three young academics is unemployed. More than half of those young workers who are employed have so-called garbage contracts, which are often limited to just a few weeks. Even during the boom years, young people suffered from bad schools, expensive universities and a slim job market. Since the real estate bubble burst three years ago and the crisis erupted, young people, once again, are the ones suffering the most.


In other parts of Europe, the situation among young people is not nearly as desperate as it is in Spain, Portugal or Greece. Still, many can identify with their frustration -- and offshoots of the protests are gradually reaching other European cities. Young people, albeit only a few hundred, have taken to the streets in Hamburg, Vienna and Rome.


Storming the Bastille


Ironically, a 93-year-old Frenchman provided the template for the youth protests. "Indignez-vous!" or "Be Outraged!" is the polemic pamphlet that the former French resistance fighter Stéphane Hessel published last year. The Spanish "indignados" and the French "indignées" have borrowed their names from Hessel's title.


Although Hessel did not establish the pan-European movement himself, he is demanding something that has once again become en vogue after years of apathy: citizen involvement. His appeal is both vague and sufficiently serious to garner approval in many European camps. He advocates nonviolent action in a world in which there is an ever-widening gap between rich and poor.


Although the indignées in France are not yet as numerous as the protesters in Lisbon, Madrid or Athens, they are well organized. In Paris, they sit in the median strip of a boulevard and devise communiqués and plans of attack, but they do so in a very civilized way. When one of them speaks, the others indicate approval or disapproval with hand signals. It looks like a classroom at a university.


Sitting a few steps away from them is a group of Arab youth from the Paris suburbs, the banlieue, where unemployment is the highest and where cars are still being set on fire. They look perplexed as they observe this strange gathering, and occasionally one of them hurls an insult at the indignées. But the activists are mild-mannered and well-behaved, and no one reacts. They also want to remain peaceful when they storm the Bastille.



Let's see how long it will take to show up at our shores


Mama does not know but there is nothing new under the sun
An immoral country: giving handout$ to entrenched corporate interest$ with armie$ of lobbyist$ while seeking to cut those to hungry children, struggling families and frail seniors. Shame on everybody who allows demagogues, xenophobes, sectarians and homophobes to not only see their party as a sanctuary but as a place to rise to its top. 
Bollocks to this: Regulation is always bad, what’s good for the banksters is good for America, tax cuts are the universal elixir, trickle-down economics work aka cream for the top, crumbs for everyone else.
Bang$ter$ believe in capitalism when it comes to pocketing the profits and socialism when it comes to paying for their losses.
Jon Corzine & Jamie Dimon: I’m a bang$ter. Catch me if you can. ToBigToJail
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfo3SGIiSE0&feature=player_embedded#!

View Revisions : 1   |    Posted:  6/8/2011 2:47:18 PM   |   IP:  Recorded    |    Report this post


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P: 6/8/2011 3:06:14 PM
HT

Member

Total Posts: 2,760
Last Post: 4/20/2013
Member Since: 7/16/2004

 


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2htv4JwiU0&feature=related








The underlying force is Pluto (Big Biz and Government) into Capricorn







Since then we have had worldwide bank bailouts, Gvt took over whole industries (at least for a while)














http://www.amanita.at/Interessantes/Artikel/detail.php?id=308  
        
In 1994 the stock markets experienced the longest correction of the 80ies and 90ies and with the ingress of Pluto into Sag on 1/16/95 the real mania started: the Nasdaq 100 index rose from below 400 points in 1994 to almost 5000 points in 2000. Besides, the year 1995 marked the breakthrough of the internet as one key element of globalization.

 One of the characteristics of the Saturn-ruled sign Capricorn is bureaucracy and planned economy. In 1989 the Eastern bloc collapsed under the very remarkable triple conjunction of Saturn, Uranus and Neptune in the sign Capricorn. Uranus and especially Neptune dissolved the Capricorn structures. For world politics, 1989 was without doubt the most important year in the 2nd half of the 20th century due to the extra-ordinary constellations the events were foreseen by some astrologers albeit almost no one did pay attention because the end of communism of the Soviet Union seemed surreal to political observers without the necessary astrological background.

The market that is currently almost the only mechanism to set prices and distribute goods should be partly replaced in the coming 15-20 years by other means, e.g. coupons. In the past years some states have started to re-nationalize key industries. The privatizations of the past 20+ years have been touted as a 'progressive' policy but reality looks different: from a historical perspective, privatizations have been a means to avoid or at least postpone an approaching state default!

Viewed from the sun (heliocentric), Pluto enters Capricorn on 7/19/08, viewed from earth (geocentric) there are two ingresses due to the retrograde period, one at the beginning and one at the end of the year. The United States are for me a Sagittarius country while Capricorn is more associated with China which is the 2nd oldest state on the planet, after Egypt. So the transit of Pluto as the planet of power from Sag into Cap certainly paraphrases the ongoing power shift from the US to China. There are numerous signs that the US empire is crumbling.







Interestingly, two symbolic events happen near the sign change of Pluto in July 08: first, in June 08 Bill Gates, the founder of one of the most valuable US companies and the symbol of the American dream, is (semi-) retiring. Second, in August 08 the Olympic Games take place in China. Another key event could be the withdrawal of the US army from Iraq in fall 2008. And last but not least it's a nice synchronicity that PetroChina is replacing Exxon as the company with the highest market capitalization, both being oil companies (= Pluto). 

The cycle of civilizations (rise & fall) is typically 220-240 years long, which approximately equals one revolution of Pluto (247 years) and is also close to a higher vibration of one Venus cycle (225 years).







The scarcity of raw materials is clearly on the horizon, in particular of the commodity #1 for the capitalistic society: oil. Robert Gover expects the most serious depression in the history of the US 2008-19.





 





This should throw the nation back to the level of a 3rd world country, the country should also return to the isolationism policy of the 19th century. Politically you have to be prepared for an Orwellian police state during the Capricorn transit, this is a key element of the New World Order plans.








Saturn and the sign Capricorn have another traditional meaning: age. The revolution of Saturn of about 30 years is about the length of one generation. Is it just a coincidence that according to Harry Dent the West reaches the top of the generation cycle in 2008-9 with the ingress of Pluto (= the mass) into the sign Capricorn (= age), a long-term growth top





 





Analyzing the sectors it's obvious that those industries that have profited most from globalization will also suffer the most. Tourism and transport (especially airlines) will have a hard time when oil is getting extremely expensive. Instead, the "dirty" sectors" (industry, commodities, agriculture) are favored by the global trends.









Just a warning: astro guys always seem to expect the next big crash  etc.







there is ying/yang, black/white, negative/positive
                       







 







Anyhow, so far the banksters rule the world and the action is right now in Greece:

                       




http://www.eurasiareview.com/author/michael-hudson/  :


The Greek bailout provides an opportunity for privatization grab








When Greece exchanged its drachma for the euro in 2000, most voters were all for joining the Eurozone. The hope was that it would ensure stability, and that this would promote rising wages and living standards. Few saw that the stumbling point was tax policy. Greece was excluded from the eurozone the previous year as a result of failing to meet the 1992 Maastricht criteria for EU membership, limiting budget deficits to 3 percent of GDP, and government debt to 60 percent.







The euro also had other serious fiscal and monetary problems at the outset. There is little thought of wealthier EU economies helping bring less productive ones up to par, e.g. as the United States does with its depressed areas (as in the rescue of the auto industry in 2010) or when the federal government does declares a state of emergency for floods, tornados or other disruptions. As with the United States and indeed nearly all countries, EU “aid” is largely self-serving – a combination of export promotion and bailouts for debtor economies to pay banks in Europe’s main creditor nations: Germany, France and the Netherlands. The EU charter banned the European Central Bank (ECB) from financing government deficits, and prevents (indeed, “saves”) members from having to pay for the “fiscal irresponsibility” of countries running budget deficits. This “hard” tax policy was the price that lower-income countries had to sign onto when they joined the European Union.







Also unlike the United States (or almost any nation), Europe’s parliament was merely ceremonial. It had no power to set and administer EU-wide taxes. Politically, the continent remains a loose federation. Every member is expected to pay its own way. The central bank does not monetize deficits, and there is minimal federal sharing with member states. Public spending deficits – even for capital investment in infrastructure – must be financed by running into debt, at rising interest rates as countries running deficits become more risky.





 





This means that spending on transportation, power and other basic infrastructure that was publicly financed in North America and the leading European economies (providing services at subsidized rates) must be privatized. Prices for these services must be set high enough to cover interest and other financing charges, high salaries and bonuses, and be run for profit – indeed, for rent extraction as public regulatory authority is disabled.







This makes countries going this route less competitive. It also means they will run into debt to Germany, France and the Netherlands, causing the financial strains that now are leading to showdowns with democratically elected governments. At issue is whether Europe should succumb to centralized planning – on the right wing of the political spectrum, under the banner of “free markets” defined as economies free from public price regulation and oversight, free from consumer protection, and free from taxes on the rich.







The crisis for Greece – as for Iceland, Ireland and debt-plagued economies capped by the United States – is occurring as bank lobbyists demand that “taxpayers” pay for the bailouts of bad speculations and government debts stemming largely from tax cuts for the rich and for real estate, shifting the fiscal burden as well as the debt burden onto labor and industry. The financial sector’s growing power to achieve this tax favoritism is crippling economies, driving them further into reliance on yet more debt financing to remain solvent. Aid is conditional upon recipient countries reducing their wage levels (“internal devaluation”) and selling off public enterprises.





The tunnel vision that guides these policies is self-reinforcing. Europe, America and Japan draw their economic managers from the ranks of professionals sliding back and forth between the banks and finance ministries – what the Japanese call “descent from heaven” to the private sector where worldly rewards are greatest. It is not merely delayed payment for past service. Their government experience and contacts helps them influence the remaining public bureaucracy and lobby their equally opportunistic replacements to promote pro-financial fiscal and monetary policies – that is, to handcuff government and deter regulation and taxation of the financial sector and its real estate and monopoly clients, and to use the government’s taxing and money-creating power to provide bailouts when the inevitable financial collapse occurs as the economy shrinks below break-even levels into negative equity territory.                      






Regressive tax policies – shifting taxes off the rich and off property onto labor – cause budget deficits financed by public debt. When bondholders pull the plug, the resulting debt pressure forces governments to pay off debts by selling land and other public assets to private buyers (unless governments repudiate the debt or recover by restoring progressive taxation). Most such sales are done on credit. This benefits the banks by creating a loan market for the buyouts. Meanwhile, interest absorbs the earnings, depriving the government of tax revenue it formerly could have received as user fees. The tax gift to financiers is based on the bad policy of treating debt financing as a necessary cost of doing business, not as a policy choice – one that indeed is induced by the tax distortion of making interest payments tax-deductible.                      








Buyers borrow credit to appropriate “the commons” in the same way they bid for commercial real estate. The winner is whoever raises the largest buyout loan – by pledging the most revenue to pay the bank as interest. So the financial sector ends up with the revenue hitherto paid to governments as taxes or user fees. This is euphemized as a free market.










                       







Promoting the financial sector at the economy’s expense






The resulting debt leveraging is not a solvable problem. It is a quandary from which economies can escape only by focusing on production and consumption rather than merely subsidizing the financial system to enable players to make money from money by inflating asset prices on free electronic keyboard credit. Austerity causes unemployment, which lowers wages and prevents labor from sharing in the surplus. It enables companies to force their employees to work overtime and harder in order to get or keep a job, but does not really raise productivity and living standards in the way envisioned a century ago. Increasing housing prices on credit – requiring larger debts for access to home ownership – is not real prosperity.
                 






To contrast the “real” economy from the financial sector requires distinctions to be drawn between productive and unproductive credit and investment. One needs the concept of economic rent as an institutional and political return to privilege without a corresponding cost of production. Classical political economy was all about distinguishes earned from unearned income, cost-value from market price. But pro-financial lobbyists deny that any income or rentier wealth is unearned or parasitic. The national income and product accounts (NIPA) do not draw any such distinction. This blind spot is not accidental. It is the essence of post-classical economics. And it explains why Europe is so crippled.
                       








The way in which the euro was created in 1999 reflects this shallow vision. The Maastricht fiscal and financial rules maximize the commercial loan market by preventing central banks from supplying governments (and hence, the economy) with credit to grow. Commercial banks are to be the sole source of financing budget deficits – defined to include infrastructure investment in transportation, communication, power and water. Privatization of these basic services blocks governments from supplying them at subsidized rates or freely. So roads are turned into toll roads, charging access fees that are readily monopolized. Economies are turned into sets of tollbooths, paying out their access charges as interest to creditors. These extractive rents make privatized economies high-cost. But to the financial sector that is “wealth creation.” It is enhanced by untaxing interest payments to banks and bondholders – aggravating fiscal deficits in the process, however.






The Greek budget crisis in perspective

 A fiscal legacy of the colonels’ 1967-74 junta was tax evasion by the well to do. The “business-friendly” parties that followed were reluctant to tax the wealthy. A 2010 report stated that nearly a third of Greek income was undeclared, with “fewer than 15,000 Greeks declar[ing] incomes of over €100,000, despite tens of thousands living in opulent wealth on the outskirts of the capital. A new drive by the Socialists to track down swimming pool owners by deploying Google Earth was met with a virulent response as Greeks invested in fake grass, camouflage and asphalt to hide the tax liabilities from the spies in space.” 






As a result of the military dictatorship depressing public spending below the European norm, infrastructure needed to be rebuilt – and this required budget deficits. The only way to avoid running them would have been to make the rich pay the taxes they were supposed to. But squeezing public spending to the level that wealthy Greeks were willing to pay in taxes did not seem politically feasible. (Almost no country since the 1980s has enacted Progressive Era tax policies.) The 3% Maastricht limit on budget deficits refused to count capital spending by government as capital formation, on the ideological assumption that all government spending is deadweight waste and only private investment is productive.





 





The path of least resistance was to engage in fiscal deception. Wall Street bankers helped the “conservative” (that is, fiscally regressive and financially profligate) parties conceal the extent of the public debt with the kind of junk accounting that financial engineers had pioneered for Enron. And as usual when financial deception in search of fees and profits is concerned, Goldman Sachs was in the middle. In February 2010, the German magazine Der Spiegel exposed how the firm had helped Greece conceal the rise in public debt, by mortgaging assets in a convoluted derivatives deal – legal but with the covert intent of circumventing the Maastricht limitation on deficits. “Eurostat’s reporting rules don’t comprehensively record transactions involving financial derivatives,” so Greece’s obligation appeared as a cross-currency swap rather than as a debt. The government used off-balance-sheet entities and derivatives similar to what Icelandic and Irish banks later would use to indulge in fictitious debt disappearance and an illusion of financial solvency.





                 







The reality, of course, was a virtual debt. The government was obligated to pay Wall Street billions of euros out of future airport landing fees and the national lottery as “the so-called cross currency swaps … mature, and swell the country’s already bloated deficit.” Translated into straightforward terms, the deal left Greece’s public-sector budget deficit at 12 percent of GDP, four times the Maastricht limit.

                       








Using derivatives to engineer Enron-style accounting enabled Greece to mask a debt as a market swap based on foreign currency options, to be unwound over ten to fifteen years . Goldman was paid some $300 million in fees and commissions for its aid orchestrating the 2001 scheme. “A similar deal in 2000 called Ariadne devoured the revenue that the government collected from its national lottery. Greece, however, classified those transactions as sales, not loans.” JPMorgan Chase and other banks helped orchestrate similar deals across Europe, providing “cash upfront in return for government payments in the future, with those liabilities then left off the books.”                       








The financial sector has an interest in understating the debt burden – first, by using “mark to model” junk accounting, and second, by pretending that the debt burden can be paid without disrupting economic life. Financial spokesmen from Tim Geithner in the United States to Dominique Strauss-Kahn at the IMF claimed that the post-2008 debt crisis is merely a short-term “liquidity problem” (lack of “confidence”), not insolvency reflecting an underlying inability to pay. Banks promise that everything will be all right when the economy “returns to normal” – if only the government will buy their junk mortgages and bad loans (“sound long-term investments”) for ready cash.








The intellectual deception at work





                    







Financial lobbyists seek to distract voters and policy makers from realizing that “normalcy” cannot be restored without wiping out the debts that have made the economy abnormal. The larger the debt burden grows, the more economy-wide austerity is required to pay debts to banks and bondholders instead of investing in capital formation and real growth.                    








Austerity makes the problem worse, by intensifying debt deflation. To pretend that austerity helps economies rather than destroys them, bank lobbyists claim that shrinking markets will lower wage rates and “make the economy more competitive” by “squeezing out the fat.” But the actual “fat” is the debt overhead – the interest, amortization, financial fees and penalties built into the cost of doing business, the cost of living and the cost of government.                     








When difficulty arises in paying debts, the path of least resistance is to provide more credit – to enable debtors to pay. This keeps the system solvent by increasing the debt overhead – seemingly an oxymoron. As financial institutions see the point approaching where debts cannot be paid, they try to get “senior creditors” – the ECB and IMF – to lend governments enough money to pay, and ideally to shift risky debts onto the government (“taxpayers”). This gets them off the books of banks and other large financial institutions that otherwise would have to take losses on Greek government bonds, Irish bank obligations bonds, etc., just as these institutions lost on their holdings of junk mortgages. The banks use the resulting breathing room to try and dump their bond holdings and bad bets on the proverbial “greater fool.”                      








In the end the debts cannot be paid. For the economy’s high-financial managers the problem is how to postpone defaults for as long as possible – and then to bail out, leaving governments (“taxpayers”) holding the bag, taking over the obligations of insolvent debtors (such as A.I.G. in the United States). But to do this in the face of popular opposition, it is necessary to override democratic politics. So the divestment by erstwhile financial losers requires that economic policy be taken out of the hands of elected government bodies and transferred to those of financial planners. This is how financial oligarchy replaces democracy.                 








Paying higher interest for higher risk, while protecting banks from losses






The role of the ECB, IMF and other financial oversight agencies has been to make sure that bankers got paid. As the past decade of fiscal laxity and deceptive accounting came to light, bankers and speculators made fortunes jacking up the interest rate that Greece had to pay for its increasing risk of default. To make sure they did not lose, bankers shifted the risk onto the European “troika” empowered to demand payment from Greek taxpayers.







Banks that lent to the public sector (at above-market interest rates reflecting the risk), they were to be bailed out at public expense. (At the time of the spring 2010 bailout French banks held €31 billion of Greek bonds, compared to €23 billion by German banks. This helps explain why French President Nicolas Sarkozy sought to take major credit for the bailout, based on a May 7, 2010 discussions with EU Commission President José Manuel Barroso, ECB President Jean-Claude Trichet and Eurogroup President Jean-Claude Juncker.)







Demanding that Greece not impose a “haircut” on creditors, the ECB and related EU bureaucracy demanded a better deal for European bondholders than creditors received from the Brady bonds that resolved Latin American and Third World debts in the 1980s. In an interview with the Financial Times, ECB executive board member Lorenzo Bini Smaghi insisted:







          







First, the Brady bonds solution was a solution for American banks, which were basically allowed not to ‘mark to market’ the restructured bonds. There was regulatory forbearance, which was possible in the 1980 but would not be possible today.






         







Second, the Latin American crisis was a foreign debt crisis. The main problem in the Greek crisis is Greece, its banks and its own financial system. Latin America had borrowed in dollars and the lines of credit were mainly with foreigners. Here, a large part of the debt is with Greeks. If Greece defaulted, the Greek banking system would collapse. It would then need a huge recapitalization – but where would the money come from?








 







Third, after default the Latin American countries still had a central bank that could print money to pay for civil servants’ wages, pensions. They did this and created inflation. So they got out [of the crisis] through inflation, depreciation and so forth. In Greece you would not have a central bank that could finance the government, and it would have to partly shut down some of its operations, like the health system.






                       







Mr. Bini Smaghi threatened that Europe would destroy the Greek economy if it tried to scale back its debts or even stretch out maturities to reflect the ability to pay. Greece’s choice was between or anarchy. Restructuring would not benefit “the Greek people. It would entail a major economic, social and even humanitarian disaster, within Europe. Orderly implies things go smoothly, but if you wipe out the banking system, how can it be smooth?” The ECB’s “position [is] based on principle … In the euro area debts have to be repaid and countries have to be solvent. That has to be the principle of a market-based economy.”






       







A creditor-oriented economy is not really a market-based, of course. The banks destroyed the market by their own central financial planning — using debt leverage to leave Greece with a bare choice: Either it would permit EU officials to come in and carve up its economy, selling its major tourist sites and monopolistic rent-extracting opportunities to foreign creditors in a gigantic national foreclosure movement, or it could bite the bullet and withdraw from the Eurozone. That was the deal Mr. Bini Smaghi offered: “if there are sufficient privatizations, and so forth – then the IMF can disburse and the Europeans will do their share. But the key lies in Athens, not elsewhere. The key element for the return of Greece to the market is to stop discussions about restructuring.”






              







One way or another, Greece would lose, he explained: “default or restructuring would not help solve the problems of the Greek economy, problems that can be solved only by adopting the kind of structural reforms and fiscal adjustment measures included in the programme. On the contrary it would push Greece into a major economic and social depression.” This leverage demanding to be paid or destroying the economy’s savings and monetary system is what central bankers call a “rescue,” or “restoring market forces.” Bankers claim that austerity will revive growth. But to accept as a realistic democratic alternative would be self-immolation.






                       







Unless Greece signed onto this nonsense, neither the ECB nor the IMF would extend loans to save its banking system from insolvency. On May 31, 2011, Europe agreed to provide $86 billion in euros if Greece “puts off for the time being a restructuring, hard or soft, of Greece’s huge debt burden.” The pretense was a “hope that in another two years Greece will be in a better position to repay its debts in full.” Anticipation of the faux rescue led the euro to rebound against foreign currencies, and European stocks to jump by 2%. Yields on Greek 10-year bonds fell to “only” a 15.7 percent distress level, down one percentage point from the previous week’s high of 16.8 percent when a Greek official made the threatening announcement that “Restructuring is off the table. For now it is all about growth, growth, growth.”






        







How can austerity be about growth? This idea never has worked, but the pretense was on. The EU would provide enough money for the Greek government to save bondholders from having to suffer losses. The financial sector supports heavy taxpayer expense as long as the burden does not fall on itself or its main customers in the real estate sector or the infrastructure monopolies being privatized.






                       







The loan-for-privatization tradeoff was called “aiding Greece” rather than bailing out German, French and other bondholders. But financial investors knew better. “Since the crisis began, 60 billion euros in deposits have been withdrawn from Greek banks, about a quarter of the country’s output.” These withdrawals, which were gaining momentum, were the precise size of the loan being offered!









 







Meanwhile, the shift of 60 billion euros off the balance sheets of banks onto the private sector threatened to raise the ratio of public debt to GDP over 150 percent. There was talk that another 100 billion euros would be needed to “socialize the losses” that otherwise would be suffered by German, French and other European bankers who had their eyes set on a windfall if heavily discounted Greek bonds were made risk-free by carving up Greece in much the same way that the Versailles Treaty did to Germany after World War I.






 







The Greek population certainly saw that the world was at financial war. Increasingly large crowds gathered each day to protest in Syntagma Square in front of the Parliament, much as Icelandic crowds had done earlier under similar threats by their Social Democrats to sell out the nation to European creditors. And just as Iceland’s Prime Minister Sigurdardottir held on arrogantly against public opinion, so did Greek Socialist Prime Minister George Papandreou. This prompted EU Fisheries Commissioner Maria Damanaki “to ‘speak openly’ about the dilemma facing her country,” warning: “The scenario of Greece’s exit from the euro is now on the table, as are ways to do this. Either we agree with our creditors on a programme of tough sacrifices and results … or we return to the drachma. Everything else is of secondary importance.” And former Dutch Finance Minister Willem Vermeend wrote in De Telegraaf that ‘Greece should leave the euro,’ given that it will never be able to pay back its debt.”






     







As in Iceland, the Greek austerity measures are to be put to a national referendum – with polls reporting that some 85 percent of Greeks reject the bank-bailout-cum-austerity plan. Its government is paying twice as much for credit as the Germans, despite seemingly having no foreign-exchange risk (using the euro). The upshot may be to help drive Greece out of the eurozone, not only by forcing default (the revenue is not there to pay) but by Newton’s Third Law of Political Motion: Every action creates an equal and opposite reaction. The ECB’s attempt to make Greek labor –(“taxpayers”) pay foreign bondholders is leading to pressure for outright repudiation and the domestic “I won’t pay” movement. Greece’s labor movement always has been strong, and the debt crisis is further radicalizing it.






 







The aim of commercial banks is to replace governments in creating money, making the economy entirely dependent on them, with public borrowing creating an enormous risk-free “market” for interest-bearing loans. It was to overcome this situation that the Bank of England was created in 1694 – to free the country from reliance on Italian and Dutch credit. Likewise the U.S. Federal Reserve, for all its limitations, was founded to enable the government to create its own money. But European banks have hog-tied their governments, replacing Parliamentary democracy with dictatorship by the ECB, which is blocked constitutionally from creating credit for governments – until German and French banks found it in their own interest for it to do so. As UMKC Professor Bill Black summarizes the situation:






                       







A nation that gives up its sovereign currency by joining the euro gives up the three most effective means of responding to a recession. It cannot devalue its currency to make its exports more competitive. It cannot undertake an expansive monetary policy. It does not have any monetary policy and the EU periphery nations have no meaningful influence on the ECB’s monetary policies. It cannot mount an appropriately expansive fiscal policy because of the restrictions of the EU’s growth and stability pact. The pact is a double oxymoron – preventing effective counter-cyclical fiscal policies harms growth and stability throughout the Eurozone.








       







Financial politics are now dominated by the drive to replace debt defaults by running a fiscal surplus to pay bankers and bondholders. The financial system wants to be paid. But mathematically this is impossible, because the “magic of compound interest” outruns the economy’s ability to pay – unless central banks flood asset markets with new bubble credit, as U.S. policy has done since 2008. When debtors cannot pay, and when the banks in turn cannot pay their depositors and other counterparties, the financial system turns to the government to extract the revenue from “taxpayers” (not the financial sector itself). The policy bails out insolvent banks by plunging domestic economies into debt deflation, making taxpayers bear the cost of banks gone bad.






                       







These financial claims are virtually a demand for tribute. And since 2010 they have been applied to the PIIGS countries. The problem is that revenue used to pay creditors is not available for spending within the economy. So investment and employment shrink, and defaults spread. Something must give, politically as well as economically as society is brought back to the “Copernican problem”: Will the “real” economy of production and consumption revolve around finance, or will financial demands for interest devour the economic surplus and begin to eat into the economy?






                       







Technological determinists believe that technology drives. If this were so, rising productivity would have made everybody in Europe and the United States wealthy by now, rich enough to be out of debt. But there is a Chicago School inquisition insisting that today’s needless suffering is perfectly natural and even necessary to rescue economies by saving their banks and debt overhead – as if all this is the economic core, not wrapped around the core.






                       







Meanwhile, economies are falling deeper into debt, despite rising productivity measures. The seeming riddle has been explained many times, but is so counter-intuitive that it elicits a wall of cognitive dissonance. The natural view is to think that the world shouldn’t be this way, letting credit creation load down economies with debt without financing the means to pay it off. But this imbalance is the key dynamic defining whether economies will grow or shrink.








                       







John Kenneth Galbraith explained that banking and credit creation is so simple a principle that the mind rejects it – because it is something for nothing, the proverbial free lunch stemming from the principle of banks creating deposits by making loans. Just as nature abhors a vacuum, so most people abhor the idea that there is such a thing as a free lunch. But the financial free lunchers have taken over the political system.








                       







They can hold onto their privilege and avert a debt write-down only as long as they can prevent widespread moral objection to the idea that the economy is all about saving creditor claims from being scaled back to the economy’s ability to pay – by claiming that the financial brake is actually the key to growth, not a free transfer payment.






                       







The upcoming Greek referendum poses this question just as did Iceland’s earlier this spring. As Yves Smith recently commented regarding the ECB’s game of chicken as to whether Greece’s government would accept or reject its hard terms:








                     







This is what debt slavery looks like on a national level. …










                       







Greece looks to be on its way to be under the boot of bankers just as formerly free small Southern farmers were turned into “debtcroppers” after the US Civil War. Deflationary policies had left many with mortgage payments that were increasingly difficult to service. Many fell into “crop lien” peonage. Farmers were cash starved and pledged their crops to merchants who then acted in an abusive parental role, being given lists of goods needed to operate the farm and maintain the farmer’s family and doling out as they saw fit. The merchants not only applied interest to the loans, but further sold the goods to farmers at 30% or higher markups over cash prices. The system was operated, by design, so that the farmer’s crop would never pay him out of his debts (the merchant as the contracted buyer could pay whatever he felt like for the crop; the farmer could not market it to third parties). This debt servitude eventually led to rebellion in the form of the populist movement.










                       







One would expect a similar political movement today. And as in the late 19th century, academic economics will be mobilized to reject it. Subsidized by the financial sector, today’s economic orthodoxy finds it natural to channel productivity gains to the finance, insurance and real estate (FIRE) sector and monopolies rather than to raise wages and living standards. Neoliberal lobbyists and their academic mascots dismiss sharing productivity gains with labor as being unproductive and not conducive to “wealth creation” financial style.










                       







Making governments pay creditors when banks run aground






                      







At issue is not only whether bank debts should be paid by taking them onto the public balance sheet at taxpayer expense, but whether they can reasonably be paid. If they cannot be, then trying to pay them will shrink economies further, making them even less viable. Many countries already have passed this financial limit. What is now in question is a political step – whether there is a limit to how much further creditor interests can push national populations into debt-dependency. Future generations may look back on our epoch as a great Social Experiment on how far the point may be deferred at which government – or parliaments – will draw a line against taking on public liability for debts beyond any reasonable capacity to pay without drastically slashing public spending on education, health care and other basic services?








                 







Is a government – or economy – be said to be solvent as long as it has enough land and buildings, roads, railroads, phone systems and other infrastructure to sell off to pay interest on debts mounting exponentially? Or should we think of solvency as existing under existing proportions in our mixed public/private economies? If populations can be convinced of the latter definition – as those of the former Soviet Union were, and as the ECB, EU and IMF are now demanding – then the financial sector will proceed with buyouts and foreclosures until it possesses all the assets in the world, all the hitherto public assets, corporate assets and those of individuals and partnerships.








             







This is what today’s financial War of All against All is about. And it is what the Greeks gathering in Syntagma Square are demonstrating about. At issue is the relationship between the financial sector and the “real” economy. From the perspective of the “real” economy, the proper role of credit – that is, debt – is to fund productive capital investment and economic growth. After all, it is out of the economic surplus that interest is to be paid. This requires a tax system and financial regulatory system to maximize the growth. But that is precisely the fiscal policy that today’s financial sector is fighting against. It demands tax-deductibility for interest, encouraging debt financing rather than equity. It has disabled truth-in-lending laws and regulation keeping prices (the interest rate and fees) in line with costs of production. And it blocks governments from having central banks to freely finance their own operations and provide economies with money.






                       







Banks and their financial lobbyists have not shown much interest in economy-wide wellbeing. It is easier and quicker to make money by being extractive and predatory. Fraud and crime pay, if you can disable the police and regulatory agencies. So that has become the financial agenda, eagerly endorsed by academic spokesmen and media ideologues who applaud bank managers and subprime mortgage brokers, corporate raiders and their bondholders, and the new breed of privatizers, using the one-dimensional measure of how much revenue can be squeezed out and capitalized into debt service. From this neoliberal perspective, an economy’s wealth is measured by the magnitude of debt obligations – mortgages, bonds and packaged bank loans – that capitalize income and even hoped-for capital gains at the going rate of interest.








                       







Iceland belatedly decided that it was wrong to turn over its banking to a few domestic oligarchs without any real oversight or regulation over their self-dealing. From the vantage point of economic theory, was it not madness to imagine that Adam Smith’s quip about not relying on the benevolence of the butcher, brewer or baker for their products, but on their self-interest is applicable to bankers? Their “product” is not a tangible consumption good, but interest-bearing debt. These debts are a claim on output, revenue and wealth; they do not constitute real wealth.






                       







This is what pro-financial neoliberals fail to understand. For them, debt creation is “wealth creation” (Alan Greenspan’s favorite euphemism) when credit – that is, debt – bids up prices for property, stocks and bonds and thus enhances financial balance sheets. The “equilibrium theory” that underlies academic orthodoxy treats asset prices (financialized wealth) as reflecting a capitalization of expected income. But in today’s Bubble Economy, asset prices reflect whatever bankers will lend. Rather than being based on rational calculation, their loans are based on what investment bankers are able to package and sell to frequently gullible financial institutions. This logic leads to attempts to pay pensions out of a “wealth creating” process that runs economies into debt.






  







It is not hard to statistically illustrate this. There amount of debt that an economy can pay is limited by the size of its surplus, defined as corporate profits and personal income for the private sector, and net fiscal revenue paid to the public sector. But neither today’s financial theory nor global practice recognizes a capacity-to-pay constraint. So debt service has been permitted to eat into capital formation and reduce living standards – and now, to demand privatization sell-offs.






  







As an alternative is to such financial demands, Iceland has provided a model for what Greece may do. Responding to British and Dutch demands that its government guarantee payment of the Icesave bailout, the Althing recently asserted the principle of sovereign debt:








                       







The preconditions for the extension of government guarantee according to this Act are:










                       







1. That … account shall be taken of the difficult and unprecedented circumstances with which Iceland is faced with and the necessity of deciding on measures which enable it to reconstruct its financial and economic system.










                       







This implies among other things that the contracting parties will agree to a reasoned and objective request by Iceland for a review of the agreements in accordance with their provisions.










                       







2. That Iceland’s position as a sovereign state precludes legal process against its assets which are necessary for it to discharge in an acceptable manner its functions as a sovereign state.










                       







Instead of imposing the kind of austerity programs that devastated Third World countries from the 1970s to the 1990s and led them to avoid the IMF like a plague, the Althing is changing the rules of the financial system. It is subordinating Iceland’s reimbursement of Britain and Holland to the ability of Iceland’s economy to pay:










                       







In evaluating the preconditions for a review of the agreements, account shall also be taken to the position of the national economy and government finances at any given time and the prospects in this respect, with special attention being given to foreign exchange issues, exchange rate developments and the balance on current account, economic growth and changes in gross domestic product as well as developments with respect to the size of the population and job market participation.










                       







This is the Althing proposal to settle its Icesave bank claims that Britain and the Netherlands rejected so passionately as “unthinkable.” So Iceland said, “No, take us to court.” And that is where matters stand right now.










                       







Greece is not in court. But there is talk of a “higher law,” much as was discussed in the United States before the Civil War regarding slavery. At issue today is the financial analogue, debt peonage.










                       







Will it be enough to change the world’s financial environment? For the first time since the 1920s (as far as I know), Iceland made the capacity-to-pay principle the explicit legal basis for international debt service. The amount to be paid is to be limited to a specific proportion of the growth in its GDP (on the admittedly tenuous assumption that this can indeed be converted into export earnings). After Iceland recovers, the Treasury offered to guarantee payment for Britain for the period 2017-2023 up to 4% of the growth of GDP after 2008, plus another 2% for the Dutch. If there is no growth in GDP, there will be no debt service. This meant that if creditors took punitive actions whose effect is to strangle Iceland’s economy, they wouldn’t get paid.










                       







No wonder the EU bureaucracy reacted with such anger. It was a would-be slave rebellion. Returning to the applicable of Newton’s Third Law of motion to politics and economics, it was natural enough for Iceland, as the most thoroughly neoliberalized disaster area, to be the first economy to push back. The past two years have seen its status plunge from having the West’s highest living standards (debt-financed, as matters turn out) to the most deeply debt-leveraged. In such circumstances it is natural for a population and its elected officials to experience a culture shock – in this case, an awareness of the destructive ideology of neoliberal “free market” euphemisms that led to privatization of the nation’s banks and the ensuing debt binge.










                       







The Greeks gathering in Syntagma Square seem to need no culture shock to reject their Socialist government’s cave-in to European bankers. It looks like they may follow Iceland in leading the ideological pendulum back toward a classical awareness that in practice, this rhetoric turns out to be a junk economics favorable to banks and global creditors. Interest-bearing debt is the “product” that banks sell, after all. What seemed at first blush to be “wealth creation” was more accurately debt-creation, in which banks took no responsibility for the ability to pay. The resulting crash led the financial sector to suddenly believe that it did love centralized government control after all – to the extent of demanding public-sector bailouts that would reduce indebted economies to a generation of fiscal debt peonage and the resulting economic shrinkage.










                       







As far as I am aware, this agreement is the first since the Young Plan for Germany’s reparations debt to subordinate international debt obligations to the capacity-to-pay principle. The Althing’s proposal spells this out in clear terms as an alternative to the neoliberal idea that economies must pay willy-nilly (as Keynes would say), sacrificing their future and driving their population to emigrate in a vain attempt to pay debts that, in the end, can’t be paid but merely leave debtor economies hopelessly dependent on their creditors. In the end, democratic nations are not willing to relinquish political planning authority to an emerging financial oligarchy.










                       







No doubt the post-Soviet countries are watching, along with Latin American, African and other sovereign debtors whose growth has been stunted by predatory austerity programs imposed by IMF, World Bank and EU neoliberals in recent decades. We should all hope that the post-Bretton Woods era is over. But it won’t be until the Greek population follows that of Iceland in saying no – and Ireland finally wakes up.










                       







Financial Times columnist Martin Wolf writes that the eurozone “has only two options: to go forwards towards a closer union or backwards towards at least partial dissolution. … either default and partial dissolution or open-ended official support.” But ECB intransigence leaves little alternative to breakup. Europe’s payments-surplus nations are waging financial war against the deficit countries. Without a common union based on mutual support within a mixed economy – one capable of checking financial aggression – the European Central Bank replaced the military high command. Its bold gamble is whether the Greeks will be as stupid as the Irish, not as smart as the Icelanders.










                       
                   
               
           
           
       
   












Mama does not know but there is nothing new under the sun
An immoral country: giving handout$ to entrenched corporate interest$ with armie$ of lobbyist$ while seeking to cut those to hungry children, struggling families and frail seniors. Shame on everybody who allows demagogues, xenophobes, sectarians and homophobes to not only see their party as a sanctuary but as a place to rise to its top. 
Bollocks to this: Regulation is always bad, what’s good for the banksters is good for America, tax cuts are the universal elixir, trickle-down economics work aka cream for the top, crumbs for everyone else.
Bang$ter$ believe in capitalism when it comes to pocketing the profits and socialism when it comes to paying for their losses.
Jon Corzine & Jamie Dimon: I’m a bang$ter. Catch me if you can. ToBigToJail
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfo3SGIiSE0&feature=player_embedded#!

View Revisions : 3   |    Posted:  6/8/2011 3:06:14 PM    |    IP:  Recorded    |    Report this post
P: 6/8/2011 3:21:14 PM
datapool

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Last Post: 5/16/2013
Member Since: 2/23/2008

I have not read your full thread - but watch ZEITGEIST MOVING FORWARD.... sounds similar...
Lars ;-)

Revisions : 0   |    Posted:  6/8/2011 3:21:14 PM    |    IP:  Recorded    |    Report this post
P: 6/8/2011 4:26:25 PM
HT

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Total Posts: 2,760
Last Post: 4/20/2013
Member Since: 7/16/2004

not familiar with it but I don't like the sound of it   









 









 










http://www.lighthouseinvestmentmanagement.com/category/bond-market/    :
http://www.bilanz.ch/gespraech/hans-werner-sinn-fass-ohne-boden


Hans-Werner Sinn, head of German research institute IFO and that's a top address, has just put his life into peril. He had to pick a Swiss magazine (“Bilanz”) to express what nobody else is allowed to mention in Germany: “Greece is a bottomless barrel”.



















For those who remember, Sinn was the only one among 20 German luminaries who refused to recommend buying Greek government bonds a year ago. And showed some common sense (“Sinn” coincidently meaning “sense” in German):















I would recommend vacationing in Greece. That way, you know you’ll get something in return for your money.











From his interview (my translation):















“Creditors have to take a haircut on Greek debt – Greece can’t pay it back anyway.”










“An exit from the Euro zone is, among various alternatives, the least horrible.”










“In case of an exit customers would storm their banks to withdraw their Euros, and the banks would be bust. But the outcome would be same in case of an internal devaluation, since many companies would go bust, making them unable to pay back their debt towards banks.”










“I wouldn’t be surprised if Portugal and Ireland would need another bail-out within a couple of months.”










“If German voters understood what was going on they wouldn’t tolerate it. Do they understand the difference between a billion and a trillion? A trillion puts their kids’ future at risk.”










“Strauss-Kahn is being worshipped in Greece. He was instrumental in pushing through these rescue packages.”










On Italy: “If we are lucky Italy will manage a soft-landing. They have had frightening price increases. In other countries, such real estate bubbles burst with a loud bang.”










“Nobody could save Italy. Italy has to save itself.”










On European banks: “They are still under-capitalized. They still have Greek government bonds in their books valued at prices from July 2008.”


















 














Mama does not know but there is nothing new under the sun
An immoral country: giving handout$ to entrenched corporate interest$ with armie$ of lobbyist$ while seeking to cut those to hungry children, struggling families and frail seniors. Shame on everybody who allows demagogues, xenophobes, sectarians and homophobes to not only see their party as a sanctuary but as a place to rise to its top. 
Bollocks to this: Regulation is always bad, what’s good for the banksters is good for America, tax cuts are the universal elixir, trickle-down economics work aka cream for the top, crumbs for everyone else.
Bang$ter$ believe in capitalism when it comes to pocketing the profits and socialism when it comes to paying for their losses.
Jon Corzine & Jamie Dimon: I’m a bang$ter. Catch me if you can. ToBigToJail
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfo3SGIiSE0&feature=player_embedded#!

View Revisions : 2   |    Posted:  6/8/2011 4:26:25 PM    |    IP:  Recorded    |    Report this post
P: 6/8/2011 6:30:57 PM
abacaba

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Last Post: 5/10/2013
Member Since: 7/18/2004

HT,

 

Could you kindly provide attributions or references for your posts for those of us who are sticklers for original sources?  Thanks!

 

Todd

Revisions : 0   |    Posted:  6/8/2011 6:30:57 PM    |    IP:  Recorded    |    Report this post
P: 6/9/2011 1:30:31 AM
HT

Member

Total Posts: 2,760
Last Post: 4/20/2013
Member Since: 7/16/2004

done  

 

not sure why I have these big spaces between the paragraphs....

Mama does not know but there is nothing new under the sun
An immoral country: giving handout$ to entrenched corporate interest$ with armie$ of lobbyist$ while seeking to cut those to hungry children, struggling families and frail seniors. Shame on everybody who allows demagogues, xenophobes, sectarians and homophobes to not only see their party as a sanctuary but as a place to rise to its top. 
Bollocks to this: Regulation is always bad, what’s good for the banksters is good for America, tax cuts are the universal elixir, trickle-down economics work aka cream for the top, crumbs for everyone else.
Bang$ter$ believe in capitalism when it comes to pocketing the profits and socialism when it comes to paying for their losses.
Jon Corzine & Jamie Dimon: I’m a bang$ter. Catch me if you can. ToBigToJail
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfo3SGIiSE0&feature=player_embedded#!

Revisions : 0   |    Posted:  6/9/2011 1:30:31 AM    |    IP:  Recorded    |    Report this post
P: 6/15/2011 5:48:20 PM
HT

Member

Total Posts: 2,760
Last Post: 4/20/2013
Member Since: 7/16/2004

June 15, 2011






Greek Leader Reshuffles Cabinet, Asks for Vote









ATHENS — Prime Minister George Papandreou said Wednesday that he would reshuffle his cabinet and request a vote of confidence in Parliament after talks with the opposition about a unity government foundered.




Earlier in the day, as thousands took to the streets to protest austerity measures, Mr. Papandreou had offered to step aside so that his Socialist party could form a coalition government with the center-right opposition, but only if it would support a new bailout plan for the debt-ridden country. Greece needs to pass a new round of austerity measures by the end of the month in return for fresh loans from the International Monetary Fund and the European Union.




News of the political instability here rattled world financial markets, which fear that Greece’s failure to agree on an austerity package could lead to a default that could ignite a series of crises in other heavily indebted euro zone countries, like Portugal, Ireland and Spain. That, in turn, could threaten Europe’s banks.




Greece instituted a round of painful budget cuts last year in exchange for international financial assistance that staved off default. With the country now seeking a new round of financing, Greek leaders face the nearly impossible task of balancing the demands of their hard-pressed citizens with those of the I.M.F. and the European Union.




Mr. Papandreou’s support is plummeting, even within his party, and the Socialists in turn appear to be lagging behind the center-right opposition for the first time since the current government was elected in 2009. With a five-seat majority in Parliament, Mr. Papandreou has been struggling to get his government fully behind the measures amid growing rifts within his party.




Antonis Samaras, the leader of the center-right New Democracy party, has opposed spending cuts, calling instead for tax breaks and a renegotiation of the terms of Greece’s agreement with its foreign creditors.




After hours of speculation, Mr. Papandreou went on national television just before 10 p.m. local time and announced the cabinet reshuffle. He criticized the opposition for playing politics with the country’s future.




“I have asked for this effort to be a common one, I made constant appeals for consensus to the opposition,” he said. “Today, I repeated those appeals,” he said.




The prime minister also accused the opposition of leaking details of a highly sensitive preliminary conversation to the news media. Before the two leaders could discuss possible terms, he said, “Certain conditions were made public, which would not be acceptable because they would keep the country in a prolonged state of instability and introversion.”




Mr. Samaras defended his actions in a televised speech later on Wednesday, saying it was impossible to participate with the Socialists in a coalition government because “they have lost the trust of both the Greek citizens and the markets.” Speaking of Mr. Papandreou, he said, “If he can govern, he shouldn’t have asked us for support. If he can’t, he should call elections."




On Wednesday, thousands joined a nationwide strike as Parliament prepared to debate a second round of sharp cuts to government spending. The measures are highly unpopular with Greeks, who have already suffered deep salary and pension cuts.




“We had the first set of measures, that’s over, now they want a second,” said Angeliki Kolandretsou, 63, a retired private nurse who was one of thousands of Greeks who joined the nationwide strike Wednesday. “But what will we see from this? Nothing at all. It will just go to the banks.”




On Wednesday, the police fired tear gas and scuffled with protesters in the central Syntagma Square here. Some in the crowd smashed the windows of a luxury hotel and tried to prevent legislators from entering Parliament. Police officials said they had detained more than 20 people.




Violent and often theatrical protests have long been a mainstay in Greece, even before the financial crisis hit. But in a more telling sign of the depth of the anger, for three weeks, peaceful demonstrators have gathered daily in Syntagma Square, some sleeping in tents, to protest the austerity measures.




Wednesday’s protest drew 25,000 largely peaceful demonstrators from across Greek society.




“Last year we said, ‘O.K., they’ll cut our salaries, they’ll cut our pensions, let’s see what happens,’ “ Ms. Kolandretsou said. “But absolutely nothing has been achieved and now we’re back to square one.”




A mother of two, Ms. Kolandretsou said that her monthly pension had been cut to about $915 from $1,000, and that her 42-year-old son, unemployed for five years, had moved back home to live with her. “I never used to come to demonstrations,” she said, with tears in her eyes. “But I’m worried about my children and my grandchildren.”




In Greece, there is a deep divide between policy experts, who tend to believe that the country is taking the right steps to get back on track, and most Greeks, who feel they are unfairly suffering from the government’s mistakes.




“We didn’t create the debt, they created the debt,” said Lina Pantazi, 40, a public school French teacher, as she stood in Syntagma Square wearing a surgical mask and sunglasses to protect against tear gas that police fired on the crowds.




The new austerity measures aim to raise about $9.1 billion this year through additional tax increases and cuts to public sector spending. They include a “solidarity tax,” ranging from 1 to 4 percent according to income, and an additional 3 percent tax on the incomes of civil servants — whose salaries have already been cut by up to 20 percent over the past year.




The government is expected to vote on the new measures later this month.




An emergency tax will also be imposed on owners of large properties, yachts and swimming pools. The new austerity drive also aims to slash the Greek civil service, which employs about 800,000 people, by a quarter over the next few years, and sell off $71.45 billion in state-owned assets, including stakes in Greece’s main electricity utility.




Critics accuse the government of saddling Greeks with deeply unpopular wage and pension cuts while failing to adequately address rampant tax evasion or take on the powerful labor unions that remain a pillar of the Socialist Party’s power base.




But analysts said that in spite of the political turmoil, the Greek parliament was still likely to pass the new austerity measures. “It’s going to be difficult, but the dilemma is clear,” said George Pagoulatos, a professor of European political economy at Athens University of Economics. “If the measure doesn’t pass and we don’t get the money, we go bankrupt.”




graphs



   
       
           
       
   









   
       
           
       
   


















Mama does not know but there is nothing new under the sun
An immoral country: giving handout$ to entrenched corporate interest$ with armie$ of lobbyist$ while seeking to cut those to hungry children, struggling families and frail seniors. Shame on everybody who allows demagogues, xenophobes, sectarians and homophobes to not only see their party as a sanctuary but as a place to rise to its top. 
Bollocks to this: Regulation is always bad, what’s good for the banksters is good for America, tax cuts are the universal elixir, trickle-down economics work aka cream for the top, crumbs for everyone else.
Bang$ter$ believe in capitalism when it comes to pocketing the profits and socialism when it comes to paying for their losses.
Jon Corzine & Jamie Dimon: I’m a bang$ter. Catch me if you can. ToBigToJail
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfo3SGIiSE0&feature=player_embedded#!

Revisions : 0   |    Posted:  6/15/2011 5:48:20 PM    |    IP:  Recorded    |    Report this post
P: 8/7/2011 9:47:30 AM
HT

Member

Total Posts: 2,760
Last Post: 4/20/2013
Member Since: 7/16/2004


 

8/6/2011



JERUSALEM — At least 250,000 Israelis took to the streets on Saturday night to demonstrate against the high cost of living and lack of affordable housing, the largest in three weeks of protests aimed at forcing social and economic issues onto the government’s agenda.



 






Mama does not know but there is nothing new under the sun
An immoral country: giving handout$ to entrenched corporate interest$ with armie$ of lobbyist$ while seeking to cut those to hungry children, struggling families and frail seniors. Shame on everybody who allows demagogues, xenophobes, sectarians and homophobes to not only see their party as a sanctuary but as a place to rise to its top. 
Bollocks to this: Regulation is always bad, what’s good for the banksters is good for America, tax cuts are the universal elixir, trickle-down economics work aka cream for the top, crumbs for everyone else.
Bang$ter$ believe in capitalism when it comes to pocketing the profits and socialism when it comes to paying for their losses.
Jon Corzine & Jamie Dimon: I’m a bang$ter. Catch me if you can. ToBigToJail
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfo3SGIiSE0&feature=player_embedded#!

Revisions : 0   |    Posted:  8/7/2011 9:47:30 AM    |    IP:  Recorded    |    Report this post
P: 8/15/2011 9:38:44 AM
HT

Member

Total Posts: 2,760
Last Post: 4/20/2013
Member Since: 7/16/2004


Austerity and Anarchy: Budget Cuts and Social Unrest in Europe, 1919-2009

Does fiscal consolidation lead to social unrest? From the end of the Weimar Republic in Germany in the 1930s to anti-government demonstrations in Greece in 2010-11, austerity has tended to go hand in hand with politically motivated violence and social instability. In this paper, we assemble cross-country evidence for the period 1919 to the present, and examine the extent to which societies become unstable after budget cuts. The results show a clear positive correlation between fiscal retrenchment and instability. We test if the relationship simply reflects economic downturns, and conclude that this is not the key factor. We also analyse interactions with various economic and political variables. While autocracies and democracies show a broadly similar responses to budget cuts, countries with more constraints on the executive are less likely to see unrest as a result of austerity measures. Growing media penetration does not lead to a stronger effect of cut-backs on the level of unrest.



http://www.voxeu.org/sites/default/files/file/DP8513.pdf

Mama does not know but there is nothing new under the sun
An immoral country: giving handout$ to entrenched corporate interest$ with armie$ of lobbyist$ while seeking to cut those to hungry children, struggling families and frail seniors. Shame on everybody who allows demagogues, xenophobes, sectarians and homophobes to not only see their party as a sanctuary but as a place to rise to its top. 
Bollocks to this: Regulation is always bad, what’s good for the banksters is good for America, tax cuts are the universal elixir, trickle-down economics work aka cream for the top, crumbs for everyone else.
Bang$ter$ believe in capitalism when it comes to pocketing the profits and socialism when it comes to paying for their losses.
Jon Corzine & Jamie Dimon: I’m a bang$ter. Catch me if you can. ToBigToJail
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfo3SGIiSE0&feature=player_embedded#!

Revisions : 0   |    Posted:  8/15/2011 9:38:44 AM    |    IP:  Recorded    |    Report this post
P: 9/6/2011 5:32:30 AM
HT

Member

Total Posts: 2,760
Last Post: 4/20/2013
Member Since: 7/16/2004

Back to our own country. Here in the US, we see a lack of political will to reform the outsized and corrupt banking system, and the nation's flows of funds. The stagnant median wage is a major impediment to sustainable recovery. Most of the economic benefit for the last twenty years has flowed to the top one percent of the population.

How that is remedied is another matter, and will be subject to a great deal of political debate as the various interests fight for their portion of the pie as they say.

But in the case of monetary stimulus coupled with a lack of organic recovery, and the sort of slack aggregate demand that comes from economic imbalances, too much money in too few hands, what we [will] see is money being hoarded in safe havens of wealth,



especially short term Treasuries,



gold and silver,



and bank reserves.





It really makes perfect sense.

Can this go on indefinitely? No way. ***

Unless the system is reformed, it will resolve in one of three ways, or a combination of them:



a hyperinflation,

an authoritarian oligarchy with grinding stagflation,

or a civil insurrection with a fascist response   




The economy will not enjoy a sustainable recovery without a significant improvement in the median wage, if you wish to look at some simplistic indicator. Those reforms that people propose, if any, since continuing to steal from the weak seems to be in vogue in some vocal circles, will be effective to the extent that they increase it.


The entire political system in this country has reached a level of dysfunction that it is no longer representative, no longer democratic, and sadly, no longer a system to be emulated by other countries desirous of moving progressively forward.

The current political/economic reality of our country has me reminding people to read The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire: Volumes 1-6 (Vol. 1 - 3 as Kindle version for 0.99 on Amazon!)   

The concept of "representative government" is no longer applicable to our system . . . unless "representative" is exclusively applied to Corporate America. The writers and producers of the Terminator movies had it all wrong . . . it isn't technology that will devastate our planet, it's the faceless, non-human entities known as "corporations" that will ultimately turn this once great country into a wasteland.




***There is a huge Washington Post special report on Breakaway Wealth in the US. http://www.washingtonpost.com/breakawaywealth
More than most other industrialized nations, the US has seen the top 0.1% compensated in vastly disproportionate numbers versus the rest of the populace.



There are at least several reasons to be concerned about this, beyond basic fairness:

1) Nations that have extremes wealth disparities tend towards social unrest. Usually, its banana republics and dictatorships, but it could happen in a corporate-owned quasi democracy as well.

2) CEOs and other company insiders have been engaging in a massive grab of shareholders wealth for decades. Its gotten appreciably worse in the 2000s.

3) Management is now trying to hide their compensation from the business owners — the firm’s shareholders



Making matters even more outrageous, these CEOs are trying to pass legislation that would legally allow them to not to disclose executive compensation at public companies.





Ride it as long as it last - L' avenir les inquiète peu: après eux le déluge







 











Mama does not know but there is nothing new under the sun
An immoral country: giving handout$ to entrenched corporate interest$ with armie$ of lobbyist$ while seeking to cut those to hungry children, struggling families and frail seniors. Shame on everybody who allows demagogues, xenophobes, sectarians and homophobes to not only see their party as a sanctuary but as a place to rise to its top. 
Bollocks to this: Regulation is always bad, what’s good for the banksters is good for America, tax cuts are the universal elixir, trickle-down economics work aka cream for the top, crumbs for everyone else.
Bang$ter$ believe in capitalism when it comes to pocketing the profits and socialism when it comes to paying for their losses.
Jon Corzine & Jamie Dimon: I’m a bang$ter. Catch me if you can. ToBigToJail
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfo3SGIiSE0&feature=player_embedded#!

View Revisions : 4   |    Posted:  9/6/2011 5:32:30 AM    |    IP:  Recorded    |    Report this post
P: 9/10/2011 7:32:06 PM
HT

Member

Total Posts: 2,760
Last Post: 4/20/2013
Member Since: 7/16/2004

 


Mama does not know but there is nothing new under the sun
An immoral country: giving handout$ to entrenched corporate interest$ with armie$ of lobbyist$ while seeking to cut those to hungry children, struggling families and frail seniors. Shame on everybody who allows demagogues, xenophobes, sectarians and homophobes to not only see their party as a sanctuary but as a place to rise to its top. 
Bollocks to this: Regulation is always bad, what’s good for the banksters is good for America, tax cuts are the universal elixir, trickle-down economics work aka cream for the top, crumbs for everyone else.
Bang$ter$ believe in capitalism when it comes to pocketing the profits and socialism when it comes to paying for their losses.
Jon Corzine & Jamie Dimon: I’m a bang$ter. Catch me if you can. ToBigToJail
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfo3SGIiSE0&feature=player_embedded#!

Revisions : 0   |    Posted:  9/10/2011 7:32:06 PM    |    IP:  Recorded    |    Report this post
P: 10/7/2011 8:13:13 PM
HT

Member

Total Posts: 2,760
Last Post: 4/20/2013
Member Since: 7/16/2004






 





Occupy (literally) Wall Street   :)


 


Mama does not know but there is nothing new under the sun
An immoral country: giving handout$ to entrenched corporate interest$ with armie$ of lobbyist$ while seeking to cut those to hungry children, struggling families and frail seniors. Shame on everybody who allows demagogues, xenophobes, sectarians and homophobes to not only see their party as a sanctuary but as a place to rise to its top. 
Bollocks to this: Regulation is always bad, what’s good for the banksters is good for America, tax cuts are the universal elixir, trickle-down economics work aka cream for the top, crumbs for everyone else.
Bang$ter$ believe in capitalism when it comes to pocketing the profits and socialism when it comes to paying for their losses.
Jon Corzine & Jamie Dimon: I’m a bang$ter. Catch me if you can. ToBigToJail
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfo3SGIiSE0&feature=player_embedded#!

View Revisions : 1   |    Posted:  10/7/2011 8:13:13 PM    |    IP:  Recorded    |    Report this post
P: 10/7/2011 11:31:37 PM
SimonB

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SO I GUESS RUSSIA HAD IT RIGHT BEFORE "PERESTROYKA" - COMMUNISM AND SOCIALISM ARE THE ANSWERS  !!!

Simon B.

Revisions : 0   |    Posted:  10/7/2011 11:31:37 PM    |    IP:  Recorded    |    Report this post
P: 10/8/2011 11:46:02 AM
HT

Member

Total Posts: 2,760
Last Post: 4/20/2013
Member Since: 7/16/2004

 



Perestroika (Restructuring) was good for the world - it allowed the revolutions of 1989 in Eastern Europe, ended the Cold War and could be argued as the main cause of the dissolution of the Soviet Union.



So y that was good for the world - not so much for the old guard of the SU




The protest by the youth here in Wall Street is just a (or the final) protest against the unlimited power of our (not really our  lol) banks - hopefully they (the banks!) will get cut down to size and become utilities - nothing less is needed. Will it happen? I doubt it but we will see. It is fascinating to watch the reactions by the 'establishment' - they are so far clueless about this movement.









 


Indignez-Vous!     

Stephane Hessel, who fought with the French Army and the Resistance in World War II, was imprisoned in the Nazi concentration camp at Buchenwald. After the war he served as a French and UN diplomat and was named a Grand Officer of the Legion of Honor in 2006:




The motivation that underlay the Resistance was outrage. We, the veterans of the Resistance movements and fighting forces of Free France, call on the younger generations to revive and carry forward the tradition of the Resistance and its ideas. We say to you: take over, keep going, get angry! Those in positions of political responsibility, economic power and intellectual authority, in fact our whole society, must not give up or let ourselves be overwhelmed by the current international dictatorship of the financial markets, which is such a threat to peace and democracy....




We must realize that violence turns its back on hope. We have to choose hope over violence—choose the hope of nonviolence. That is the path we must learn to follow. The oppressors no less than the oppressed have to negotiate to remove the oppression: that is what will eliminate terrorist violence. That is why we cannot let too much hate accumulate....




To you who will create the twenty-first century, we say, from the bottom of our hearts,
TO CREATE IS TO RESIST.
TO RESIST IS TO CREATE.



 



 



"I have come to the conclusion that politics are too serious a matter to be left to the politicians."



Charles DeGaulle






 



Mama does not know but there is nothing new under the sun
An immoral country: giving handout$ to entrenched corporate interest$ with armie$ of lobbyist$ while seeking to cut those to hungry children, struggling families and frail seniors. Shame on everybody who allows demagogues, xenophobes, sectarians and homophobes to not only see their party as a sanctuary but as a place to rise to its top. 
Bollocks to this: Regulation is always bad, what’s good for the banksters is good for America, tax cuts are the universal elixir, trickle-down economics work aka cream for the top, crumbs for everyone else.
Bang$ter$ believe in capitalism when it comes to pocketing the profits and socialism when it comes to paying for their losses.
Jon Corzine & Jamie Dimon: I’m a bang$ter. Catch me if you can. ToBigToJail
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfo3SGIiSE0&feature=player_embedded#!

View Revisions : 2   |    Posted:  10/8/2011 11:46:02 AM    |    IP:  Recorded    |    Report this post
P: 10/8/2011 3:36:25 PM
rosow

Member

Total Posts: 44
Last Post: 7/30/2012
Member Since: 9/20/2008

Actually, HT, You have it backwards...................................The "movement" is clueless on how they are being used as pawns, like they always are, of the Democratic party, the Socialist/Marxist anti capitalism left wing radicals i.e. the George Soros wing & who can forget those wonderful folks, the Union leaders, for election year purposes. Dems have 23 of the 33 seats up for grab in the Senate in 2012 and of course the fight for the presidency is far from being a slam dunk. Have you seen the interviews of these "astro turf" protestors. Clueless is a perfect adjective describing what I'm hearing from them........................

 

"It is fascinating to watch the reactions by the 'establishment' - they are so far clueless about this movement."

Lenny

Revisions : 0   |    Posted:  10/8/2011 3:36:25 PM    |    IP:  Recorded    |    Report this post
P: 10/8/2011 5:22:22 PM
HT

Member

Total Posts: 2,760
Last Post: 4/20/2013
Member Since: 7/16/2004

 

I have 'experienced' the Tea Party. OWS is not a Tea Party   

Mama does not know but there is nothing new under the sun
An immoral country: giving handout$ to entrenched corporate interest$ with armie$ of lobbyist$ while seeking to cut those to hungry children, struggling families and frail seniors. Shame on everybody who allows demagogues, xenophobes, sectarians and homophobes to not only see their party as a sanctuary but as a place to rise to its top. 
Bollocks to this: Regulation is always bad, what’s good for the banksters is good for America, tax cuts are the universal elixir, trickle-down economics work aka cream for the top, crumbs for everyone else.
Bang$ter$ believe in capitalism when it comes to pocketing the profits and socialism when it comes to paying for their losses.
Jon Corzine & Jamie Dimon: I’m a bang$ter. Catch me if you can. ToBigToJail
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfo3SGIiSE0&feature=player_embedded#!

Revisions : 0   |    Posted:  10/8/2011 5:22:22 PM    |    IP:  Recorded    |    Report this post
P: 10/8/2011 6:51:44 PM
rosow

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Total Posts: 44
Last Post: 7/30/2012
Member Since: 9/20/2008

Well HT at least we are in agreement on one thing....................................There is no comparison between the two groups. OWS is just a bunch of whining, violent, lazy, radical, "professional" protestors who I guarantee will leave Wall Street a "pig sty" as they do every venue they leave after begging for a "nanny" state. This of course compared to the non-violent, you can eat off the ground, Tea Party rallies (not protests) on weekends this past summer (cause they work during the week). In case you weren't paying attention the Democrats lost the house in a "historic" landside this past November. Hmmmmm........................How'd that happen??? For most Americans November, 2012 can't come soon enough and by the tone of your posts here on the forum you may not like the results but keep up the good fight...................................Not sure too many are listening. You haven't by any chance read "Rules for Radicals" by Saul Alinsky or have a copy of the Cloward-Piven Strategy hanging around do you?? 

Lenny

Revisions : 0   |    Posted:  10/8/2011 6:51:44 PM    |    IP:  Recorded    |    Report this post
P: 10/9/2011 1:03:48 AM
HT

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Total Posts: 2,760
Last Post: 4/20/2013
Member Since: 7/16/2004


OWS is like the "Tea Party"  — only it’s real. By the time this is over, it will make the "Tea Party" look like … a tea party.




Right wing politicians and corporate interests quickly co-opted the "Tea Party" for their own special-interest ends (a takeover which some "Tea Party" members are still fighting). But it will be hard for the establishment to pat these well-educated OWS protesters on the head, give them "Vote Democratic" signs & get them to march in lockstep.

Unlike the "Tea Party", the Occupy protesters don't want to abolish the government and return to the good ole days when rich white men ruled. The protesters want the government to DO something. Republicans got confused "Tea Partiers" to oppose healthcare reform; the Occupy protesters want the government to guarantee health care for all. Republicans got "Tea Partiers" to oppose the regulation of Wall Street "freedoms"; the Occupy protesters want the government to come down hard on Wall Street, with both prosecutions and regulations. Republicans got "Tea Partiers" to oppose all taxation; the Occupy protesters want the federal government to return to the progressive tax structure of the 50s and 60s. The "Tea Partiers" were pawns of secretly-financed ad campaigns; the Occupy protesters want drastic campaign finance reform. They want the government to answer to them, not to fat cats who finance their campaigns.

In short, Republicans got "Tea Partiers" to work against their own best interests; the Occupy protesters are way too smart for that. Both groups have real grievances, and generally speaking those grievances are the same -- ordinary Americans have become serfs of the one percent. The "Tea Partiers" are still working toward exacerbating the problems. Occupy Wall Street is working toward fixing them.

If you are looking for some book recommendations, try these ones
James Galbraith     The Predator State    How Conservatives Abandoned the Free Market and Why Liberals Should Too
Perrucci + Wysong      The New Class Society       Goodbye American Dream?
or just read Michel de Montaigne     The Complete Essays          also a great trading book  

also recommended by Glenn Beck (just kidding)











Mama does not know but there is nothing new under the sun
An immoral country: giving handout$ to entrenched corporate interest$ with armie$ of lobbyist$ while seeking to cut those to hungry children, struggling families and frail seniors. Shame on everybody who allows demagogues, xenophobes, sectarians and homophobes to not only see their party as a sanctuary but as a place to rise to its top. 
Bollocks to this: Regulation is always bad, what’s good for the banksters is good for America, tax cuts are the universal elixir, trickle-down economics work aka cream for the top, crumbs for everyone else.
Bang$ter$ believe in capitalism when it comes to pocketing the profits and socialism when it comes to paying for their losses.
Jon Corzine & Jamie Dimon: I’m a bang$ter. Catch me if you can. ToBigToJail
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfo3SGIiSE0&feature=player_embedded#!

View Revisions : 4   |    Posted:  10/9/2011 1:03:48 AM    |    IP:  Recorded    |    Report this post
P: 10/9/2011 2:08:43 AM
rosow

Member

Total Posts: 44
Last Post: 7/30/2012
Member Since: 9/20/2008

HT, or should I call you "Mr. Copy & Paste" (It would be helpful if you gave the source of 80% of your posts),

      Believe it or not we're not in disagreement on a few issues. I was NOT in favor of TARP nor bailing out GM or Chrysler. Bottom line is you either have a product that sells or it doesn't. Poof you're gone and someone is right behind you with a better "mouse trap". You are aware that most of the big banks have paid back with interest their (some of them forced upon) TARP dollars?? Right?? The difference is your radical friends, you know, the ones deficating on police cars in NYC, are also looking for a bailout but have NO, NADA, ZERO intentions of paying any funds back to you & I, The US tax payers. As long as you're recommending books I've got one for you, "Liberty and Tyranny" by Mark Levin. One last item, your quote, from who knows who, "the Occupy protesters are way too smart for that". Are you kidding the Wave59 forum???? Blinded by the light.................   


     









Lenny

Revisions : 0   |    Posted:  10/9/2011 2:08:43 AM    |    IP:  Recorded    |    Report this post
P: 10/9/2011 2:19:01 AM
HT

Member

Total Posts: 2,760
Last Post: 4/20/2013
Member Since: 7/16/2004

 

 


 

 

 

Mama does not know but there is nothing new under the sun
An immoral country: giving handout$ to entrenched corporate interest$ with armie$ of lobbyist$ while seeking to cut those to hungry children, struggling families and frail seniors. Shame on everybody who allows demagogues, xenophobes, sectarians and homophobes to not only see their party as a sanctuary but as a place to rise to its top. 
Bollocks to this: Regulation is always bad, what’s good for the banksters is good for America, tax cuts are the universal elixir, trickle-down economics work aka cream for the top, crumbs for everyone else.
Bang$ter$ believe in capitalism when it comes to pocketing the profits and socialism when it comes to paying for their losses.
Jon Corzine & Jamie Dimon: I’m a bang$ter. Catch me if you can. ToBigToJail
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfo3SGIiSE0&feature=player_embedded#!

Revisions : 0   |    Posted:  10/9/2011 2:19:01 AM    |    IP:  Recorded    |    Report this post
P: 10/9/2011 2:47:43 AM
rosow

Member

Total Posts: 44
Last Post: 7/30/2012
Member Since: 9/20/2008

HT...........................I know you can relate to this..............................Your buddy Bruce Springsteen. You see how easy it is to give credit to the artist/writer??? Try it sometime : >)


 

 

Lenny

Revisions : 0   |    Posted:  10/9/2011 2:47:43 AM    |    IP:  Recorded    |    Report this post

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